Rutabaga varieties

[Raymondo]

That's a curious but wonderful looking vegetable Jacques. Do you know what it's called in English? Or French?

[biofutur]

Hi Ray. Nice to read you
In fact I have to tell you I've only found out and brought these seed from Yunnan this summer. Thus I've not tested them, a next year project.

To say all, as this chinese brassica group is quite a nightmare for me - not in the plate ;-) I don't think this variety is neither a pure Mustard cabbage due to thei no broad leaves, see http://www.kitazawaseed.com/seeds_chinese_mustard.html, nor a pure Kai-Lan or chinese broccoli due to the red color and the leaves too, see http://www.evergreenseeds.com/chinkalgail.html .

We can arrange an appointment for this coming spring to comment the trick. ;-)

By the way, I take this opportunity, it seems that OzGrow's don't aggree to accept Aliens among them ....

babye
jacques

[benhaskell]

In the English language, "leaf mustard" usually refers to "Indian Mustard" (Brassica junacea), or to leafy turnips-in-disguise (Brassica rapa, mostly with small roots). The "stem mustard" I am thinking of is a Chinese type of "Indian Mustard", while the "stem mustard" that you show is "Hon Tsai Tai" (a relative of turnip, Brassica rapa). In the previous post, I link to Agrohaitai, which sells a cultivar of Hon Tsai Tai called "Welcome". I agree with you, Hon Tsai Tai is one of the best flavored. I love to eat the raw shoots and leaves in salads. "Welcome" has two types of leaves. Younger plants of Welcome have huge basal leaves which do not taste good when raw, while the smaller leaves from the shoots are excellent.

If you like "Hon Tsai Tai", you may wish to grow "Yu Choy" (I prefer the slower dark green types rather than the faster yellow green types); Yu Choy has a similar texture and flavor profile but milder. Some cultivars of Bok Choy tend to bolt quickly and are called "flowering Bok Choy"; I don't have much experience with these. All of these Asian types resemble the Italian raab, but raab has a different flavor profile, more "spicy". All of these are really turnips, but raab has a long independent breeding history that differs from the Asian types.

Finally, these resemble "Kai Lan" (or Gai Lan, "Chinese Kale" or "Chinese Broccoli"), but with yet another flavor profile, but which are really cultivars of Brassica oleracea, more closely related to Broccoli, Cauliflower, and European Cabbage.

[biofutur]

hy Ben

Originally Posted by benhaskell

In the English language, "leaf mustard" usually refers to "Indian Mustard" (Brassica junacea), or to leafy turnips-in-disguise (Brassica rapa, mostly with small roots). The "stem mustard" I am thinking of is a Chinese type of "Indian Mustard", while the "stem mustard" that you show is "Hon Tsai Tai" (a relative of turnip, Brassica rapa). In the previous post, I link to Agrohaitai, which sells a cultivar of Hon Tsai Tai called "Welcome". I agree with you, Hon Tsai Tai is one of the best flavored. I love to eat the raw shoots and leaves in salads. "Welcome" has two types of leaves. Younger plants of Welcome have huge basal leaves which do not taste good when raw, while the smaller leaves from the shoots are excellent.

y're quite right.

If you like "Hon Tsai Tai", you may wish to grow "Yu Choy" (I prefer the slower dark green types rather than the faster yellow green types); Yu Choy has a similar texture and flavor profile but milder.

What are you exactly meaning with "yu Choy" are they Bok Choy or Pak choy ?

Some cultivars of Bok Choy tend to bolt quickly and are called "flowering Bok Choy"; I don't have much experience with these.

Saw them in spring or early summer (they are 60 days) Collect them when they are still young. Shadowing them is a good idea in summer.

All of these Asian types resemble the Italian raab, but raab has a different flavor profile, more "spicy". All of these are really turnips, but raab has a long independent breeding history that differs from the Asian types.

I didn't know this Italian broccoli, thank for the idea. yes they are very similarly looking to the later chinese brocoli.

Finally, these resemble "Kai Lan" (or Gai Lan, "Chinese Kale" or "Chinese Broccoli"), but with yet another flavor profile, but which are really cultivars of Brassica oleracea, more closely related to Broccoli, Cauliflower, and European Cabbage.

Thks for the precision and the botanic name.

Ben, I have another Chinese Kale, I have neither tested nor saw yet (next spring for sure) hereunder you will find foto of the seeds-packet. What do you think and know on it ? It does not looks like a turnip, nor a swede, nor a kohlrabi. Seeds are cabbage type. I have no ideas.

But the way I might know chinese people, they used to be a little lier marketingly speaking !




BBye Ben

[benhaskell]

What are you exactly meaning with "yu Choy" are they Bok Choy or Pak choy ?

Bok and Pak are English attempts to pronounce a single Chinese word; they are the same thing. Yu Choy and Bok Choy are different, although both are "turnips-in-disguise" that easily cross-pollinate. Yu Choy has thin petioles while Bok Choy has swollen petioles. So far, all of my attempts to grow Bok Choy yielded raw leaves that were more bitter than Yu Choy. However, my soil was a little too acidic, so I will try Bok Choy again, but with better soil. My memory of flowering Bok Choy was that the raw shoot tasted better than the raw leaves. The same goes for a "normal" Bok Choy that I let flower. Either "normal" or "flowering" Bok Choy produce excellent Broccoli-like shoots, but "flowering" Bok Choy is bred to produce the shoots earlier while "normal" is bred to maintain a leafy head for a longer time.

Ben, I have another Chinese Kale, I have neither tested nor saw yet (next spring for sure) hereunder you will find foto of the seeds-packet.

It looks like what I have been calling "stem mustard" (of the species Brassica juncea; Chinese: "Tsa Tsai"); it looks a little like the cultivar "Er Choy" available from Agrohaitai:

http://www.agrohaitai.com/rootstem/tsatsai/tsatsai.htm

Not to be confused with "Tatsoi" (Japanese) or "Tah Tsai" (Chinese)!!

It also looks a little like Galatina chicory (but I doubt it!):

http://www.gourmetseed.com/product/C..._Galatina.html

[benhaskell]

A few posts back, I asked what part of Spain you were from. The reason being that 2-3 years ago I started to be interested in Portuguese Brassicas, especially "Couve Galega", "Couve Tronchuda" and "Couve Penca" types.

I am interested in very tall kales (Brassica oleracea). In the 1800s, there were reports of tall kales with heights of up to 4 meters. My dream is to cross these with kohlrabi; kohlrabi looking like daikon radish instead of small globes, perhaps 1 meter long by at least 10 cm wide.

Here is a photograph of a tall Portuguese kale, perhaps a type of Couve Galega:

http://serc.carleton.edu/genomics/un...ca_photos.html

My web searches regarding Couve Galega led me to a gene bank of about 500 Brassicas collected from from Galicia:

http://www.mbg.csic.es/eng/index.php

Closer to your part of Spain, I found a very interesting collection from Catalonia (I now noticed more varieties than when I last looked, in 2007)

http://www.esporus.org/inici/directo...11&e=41&f=2&v=

I believe that the previous two links are to academic groups. This appears to be Spain's version of Seed Savers Exchange:

http://www.redsemillas.info/

Are you involved with them?

[biofutur]

Ben, I have another Chinese Kale, I have neither tested nor saw yet (next spring for sure) hereunder you will find foto of the seeds-packet.
It looks like what I have been calling "stem mustard" (of the species Brassica juncea;
Chinese: "Tsa Tsai"); it looks a little like the cultivar "Er Choy" available from Agrohaitai: http://www.agrohaitai.com/rootstem/tsatsai/tsatsai.htm

Hy Ben, this is exactly this plant. I thank you a lot for your help.

[biofutur]

http://www.mbg.csic.es/eng/index.php

Closer to your part of Spain, I found a very interesting collection from Catalonia (I now noticed more varieties than when I last looked, in 2007)http://www.esporus.org/inici/directo...11&e=41&f=2&v=

I believe that the previous two links are to academic groups. This appears to be Spain's version of Seed Savers Exchange: http://www.redsemillas.info/

Are you involved with them?

Interesting, your links.
You know, nowadays (righter to say before economic crisis) it is very "in" in each province, and to justify subsidies ( from European Union specially), to look for and recover all subspecies and varieties specific of the province. Thus Andalusia, Cataluña ... launched programs and set up organisations dedicated to this purpose. And this either for horticulture or for poultry ...

For what I may know, it is right that a lot of genetic material has been lost even in the very proximate past. Many attempts have been done to recover it but, in my opinion, with dubious or uncertain origins only to have the identical results that might appear on old publications.

In richer province and more serious ones as Cataluña, I think the work was done very scientifically and carefully. The only problem with Cataluña is that they speak and write Catalan and not Castellano at all.

All of this is my own and rubbish opinion.

My personal approach is to build me a selection of species and varieties of vegetables adapted to my climate (warmer and warmer, drier and drier) . Thus I am surfing anywhere I may meet materials and persons who might help me or who might be interested in the same goal.

[biofutur]

The only giant Kale I have is the "proteor", it may reach 2m.
In Portugal, as they have a very cool and oceanic climate, they can grow all year around, until 5 years or more the same plants of this kind of Kale in their gardens. Therefore that is why they reach a giant size.

People use the leaves boiled and cooked in soup. They have very special recipes with it and with bacon ... And it is quite good (in winter ).

Hereunder photo of this variety from Spain

Bye, Ben

[Raymondo]

Ben, have you grown any of the Portuguese brassicas? Couve tronchuda is available here and is sold as a summer cabbage, though given what Jacques said about the Portuguese climate, I don't think it would be a summer cabbage where I am.

[biofutur]

Hi Ray, Que Tal ?

I think you may try it. For the experience I have they grow mere or more slowly.
When sown in spring directly in the soil, they develop a very strong and long pivot root (I don't known how to tell that in english - un pivot très puissant) which can preserve them from any lack of watering and from excess of heat. In Portugal and Spain too it is very warm during summer. They are not the same varieties which are issued from Italy or Germany (where they are eaten a lot). thus they are more adapted to any variation of weather.

When you cut the inflorescences off they live longer.

jacques

[Raymondo]

Salut Jacques. Ça va?

When sown in spring directly in the soil, they develop a very strong and long pivot root (I don't known how to tell that in english - un pivot très puissant) which can preserve them from any lack of watering and from excess of heat. In Portugal and Spain too it is very warm during summer.

Sounds good. I'll give the Couve tronchuda a try this season. (un pivot très puissant = a strong taproot)

[biofutur]

Hy Ray, thkz, for any seeds you may need, don't hesitate.

[benhaskell]

I am growing two varieties of Portuguese cabbage:

One Tronchuda type,
http://www.gourmetseed.com/product/C...Tronchuda.html

This was from the Italian seed company Galassi Sementi; I just looked at their web site and I am unable to find Tronchuda; perhaps they no longer sell it or perhaps their web site is old and not updated. There are several cultivars of the Tronchuda type; I don't know which one I have. This is my first year of culture; I have not harvested any yet.

The second was a Penca type, "Penca pão de açucar"
http://www.floralusitana.pt/Index_Fi.../Couve/019.jpg
This is my second year. Last year, the leaves were slightly bitter. But the midribs were excellent; they are Europe's answer to Chinese Cabbage! I haven't harvested yet this year; the green caterpillars got first pick, and the plants are just recovering.

Since I am growing them now, you should have no trouble growing them now in Australia ;-) Last year, I grew Penca during summer. I live in the Pacific North West USA; I grew them about 1 Km from the ocean, which cools our summer and warms our winter.

The following link has about 10 Pencas & Tronchudas in their catalog; I want to try them all. I have not ordered from them, yet.

http://www.loja.jardicentro.pt/

[biofutur]

Thanks for the link Benhaskell, I am expecting too to buy some of them(in fact I found 6). If you just want a try, on receipt I can send you a sample of each of them.
bye, jacques